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30/01/2010 4:03:56 PM
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Matt Sarre
Posts 8
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Like many of you, hill climbing is what lights my fire in the saddle. I noticed while riding with various groups around TDU that there's a lot of variation in climbing technique out there. When to stay seated. When to 'stand'. What position you 'stand' in.
It got me thinking about the art vs sceience of climbing technique and I'd love to hear how others sort if out.
Do you have speed/gradient triggers to stand or do you just go with the feel of the moment?
Do you have technique tips on standing position (and seated position I guess?)
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30/01/2010 10:13:34 PM
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Aaron Griffiths
Posts 8
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Matt
I asked the same question, and I was told by the bike-fitting guy at Cycle Worx (thanx Andy!) that it is best to be seated on a long climb with a stable gradient, since you can focus on your pedalling technique. He said you can keep the out-of-saddle efforts for shorter bursts (change in gradient, attacks if racing, stretch the legs etc), but then get back into the seated position when this burst has finished. This advice surprised me a bit, but there ya go.......it sounds a bit like "slow and steady wins the race".
As far as what position for out-of-saddle climbs, I've got no idea. It may be what suits the individual, as long as the pedalling technique is maintained.
AG
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1/02/2010 12:36:42 AM
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Michael Warner
Posts 121
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Climbing out of the saddle is certainly less efficient - apparently you need about 10% more energy to maintain your speed. So in theory staying seated the whole way would get you up there most quickly, but standing for 15-30 seconds or so every few minutes gives a perceived "stretch" by changing the load on your muscles and gives you a mental break. It makes climbing a little slower, but more enjoyable.
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2/02/2010 1:02:01 PM
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Aaron Griffiths
Posts 8
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Matt
See attached. I won't charge for the research
AG
Attachments:
MB Coaching Hills.pdf
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2/02/2010 4:25:56 PM
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Peter Teichert
Posts 3
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Hey Aaron,
Thanks for posting this, very interesting.
PT
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2/02/2010 6:02:12 PM
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Robert Rau
Posts 149
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Improvement for me happened when Les Mills RPM released the "power climb" position which involves remaining seated and powering through using gluteal and hip flexors to maintain a maximum effort through the pedals. It is a bit rough on the knees and I wont recommend accelerating while in this position. It is interesting to watch old cycling videos (on youtube) of Pantani climbing and accelerating in a stanging position....he spent 70-80 percent of his time on the pegs, but Lance on the same climb would be climbing 70-80 percent of the time in the saddle. Probably another tip would be is to remain relaxed as possible and climb smoothly which seems to be a consistent recommendation from all the tips I have heard, for example Pat Jonker. (Love his idea that if you cant find a hill close enough to climb or train on, then ride into a head wind). I think you will eventually find your own style to suit you the more you climb
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3/02/2010 10:18:22 AM
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Paul A Smith
Posts 17
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I remember climbing up Checkers Hill Road (the one and only time) and I thought if I stand up I'm going to fall over.
Normally I would climb seated using a high cadence and stand to give my back and legs a stretch.
When I do want to accelerate its much like the article stated... click down a gear or two and get up out of the saddle.
Mind you, I'm not the fastest uphill by a long shot.
From memory, I don't think Jack Bobridge got out of the saddle during his Norton Summit record.
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3/02/2010 7:08:46 PM
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JDL
Posts 48
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Paul A Smith wrote:
I remember climbing up Checkers Hill Road (the one and only time) and I thought if I stand up I'm going to fall over.
Normally I would climb seated using a high cadence and stand to give my back and legs a stretch.
When I do want to accelerate its much like the article stated... click down a gear or two and get up out of the saddle.
Mind you, I'm not the fastest uphill by a long shot.
From memory, I don't think Jack Bobridge got out of the saddle during his Norton Summit record.
Firstly I'm sure you're not the only person who thought they were going to fall over on Checker!
Secondly I think you misread the article, the normal approach is to click up a gear or two when you get out of the saddle (apologies if you meant down as in down the cassette to a smaller cog), to a higher ratio, and this is what the article states as well..
Thirdly, I imagine the fastest way up Norton Summit would be seated all the way as you suggested.. It's not steep enough to really require getting out of the saddle I wouldn't have thought... However just because seated may be faster, doesn't mean it's as comfortable/enjoyable as getting out of the saddle occassionally.. I doubt Jack was worried too much about comfort or enjoyment when he set that time!
edited by JDL on 3/02/2010
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3/02/2010 8:43:30 PM
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Nick Muir
Posts 21
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I read an article about a year ago that said new research had proved that above a certain gradient ( can't recall , but it might have been 8% ) it is in fact equally efficient standing or sitting . They monitored HR , oxygen consumption & power output & they all remained about the same either sitting or standing on very steep gradients. I can't verify this so though unfortunatly.
From a personal point of view i always find i tend to pull away from another rider on a long climb if i stand up without a perceived increase in effort ... i guess if one set of muscles is fatigued then it pays to use some different ones despite the fact that it is often less efficient .
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3/02/2010 9:05:05 PM
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The Mountain Goat
Posts 6
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Guys,
I like to think of myself as a half decent climber despite my less then perfect fitness so I might have something to add.
On Norton summit for example I try to stay seated untill the last of 3 left hand switch backs. I find its steep enough there to get a worthwile boost by standing up.
My theory is that unless the gradient moves up to say 6 or 7 percent then the maximum gain by standing up is less than the amount of energy used.
On Willunga hill for example I go up and down constantly because I feel that the difference between effort used being up or down is reduced.
I must admit though, in to that wind on the way to Goolwa I was standing up to stretch my legs.
But Iam only a hack
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4/02/2010 1:02:22 AM
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Paul Inglis
Posts 1
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I tend to be standing for a lot of the climbing I do, but that does also depend on which climb. Norton Summit is almost all seated except for a few ramps after the hairpins, whereas Greenhill Rd I tend to quicker times when I stand most of the time. Either way it's just all about keeping a good sustainable rhythm. Usually when I'm swapping between the two constantly I won't put in a good time.
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7/02/2010 12:56:55 PM
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Neil Smith
Posts 1
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there is a topic here that kind of talks about it
http://blog.cyclekrazy.com/2009/06/climbing-techniques-become-a-better-climber/
more interesting was this one
http://blog.cyclekrazy.com/2009/09/climbing-power-vs-flat-power/
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6/04/2010 6:26:47 AM
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harley j
Posts 57
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What do the best climbers do? They mix it up with standing and sitting and spin a high cadence. Valverde, Contador, Rasmussen, Armstrong, Basso. Some of em even ride compact cranks up the steeper climbs.
Most people can get the optimum cadence on large gears. It takes a lot of training and a lot of drugs and even then we see a lot of pro's riding compact cranks anyways.
Want to know what is the best technique for you? Get a powertap meter and youll find out in a week of riding your local climbs. Training with power is objective. Training without it is like going to a gym that has no numbers on the weights and you just have to 'guess' if your getting lifting correctly.
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12/04/2010 1:33:10 PM
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JDL
Posts 48
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Went for a ride in the hills for the first time in over 2 months! Been a bit busy since the Challenge tour... Didn't feel too bad on the climbs surprisingly...
However what's with all of the propaganda crap written all over Gorge Rd?? Some stuff about being a vegan helping you if you're overweight or have cancer....
I'm not saying it's crap that being a vegan will help with cancer/weight loss, I'm not informed enough to comment on that.. However what is crap is that some people feel the need to try and brain-wash everybody else with their beliefs...
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12/04/2010 10:29:10 PM
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Robert Rau
Posts 149
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Something to read on the way up I suppose.....definitely not any worse than the junk mail I receive in my letter box......dont mind the vegan message as it stands as a challenge......(guess Im doomed because of the road kill I score.......go bladed spokes
Oops think this thread has been somewhat hijacked - sorry....my two cents worth for seated or standing while climbing - both, but if standing change to a higher gear and gun it as you use the bigger gluteal muscles but the cadence is slower, hence if you get out of the saddle too early a seated rider will wipe your arse on the lower percentage inclines and spin their way up the hill. (me, I hate spinning high cadence as it quickly sends the heart rate too high, guess Im not that fit)
edited by Robert Rau on 12/04/2010
edited by Robert Rau on 12/04/2010
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22/04/2010 5:06:36 PM
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harley j
Posts 57
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JDL wrote:
Went for a ride in the hills for the first time in over 2 months! Been a bit busy since the Challenge tour... Didn't feel too bad on the climbs surprisingly...
However what's with all of the propaganda crap written all over Gorge Rd?? Some stuff about being a vegan helping you if you're overweight or have cancer....
I'm not saying it's crap that being a vegan will help with cancer/weight loss, I'm not informed enough to comment on that.. However what is crap is that some people feel the need to try and brain-wash everybody else with their beliefs...
JDL good on you for getting out there in the hills. They say 'dont buy upgrades, ride up grades!'...
Regarding the cancer prevention advertising on Gorge Rd, I hope you dont watch TV, read the paper, look at the adds on cyclingnews.com or listen to the radio bro! cos that is plenty 'brainwashing for ya!' For those that havent seen what we are talking about it says 'Got cancer? Go vegan!' 'Got fat? Go vegan!' One of my mates said to me 'Harley, I dont care if steak gives me cancer, its better than having to eat all those pasta dishes, risotto's, tofu burgers and soy milk with muesli!' but I just didnt get what he was on about!
I like to provide peer reviewed medical studies like these sites provide, on the links between cancer and animal product consumption. Cos I can talk about wattages, my new chris king hubs, my 1000$ custom mid foot shoes and my top shelf cannondale but that aint gonna save many lives at the end of the day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3149062.stm
www.notmilk.com
www.preventcancer.com
www.drmcdougall.com
I guess if people want to discuss it more, start up a thread and let the friendly debate begin.
Yeah Ive read the stuff on the road and as much as its all true about the links with obesity, osteoporosis, cancer and animal product consumption, I think the person should have spent 50k on a billboard on south road or a tv add and pushed their beliefs on the public that way. I see that Skoda also resorted to spray painting messages on the road during the TDU.
Im racing up here on the Gold Coast and the powertap is coming in handy. I did a hill climb time trial this morning and blew the doors off my training buddies but cos I didnt know how fast they were my powertap gave me the data to be chuffed about.
Climb standing or seated? Maybe let the TV, radio and newspaper decide that one! 
edited by harley j on 22/04/2010
edited by harley j on 22/04/2010
edited by harley j on 22/04/2010
edited by harley j on 22/04/2010
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10/06/2010 11:40:10 AM
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The Oracle
Posts 2
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I definately think you need to use both in and out of seat climbing to get the best effort out of a climb. I train with hr and power meter but when I tt a climb I go by feel. You need to flat line your hr and maintain momentum in your bike. When you hit a switchback take the steep line and get out of the seat, this is shorter in distance but also faster. Getting out of the seat adds 30watts to my effort but is not sustainable over a long climb. So then its straight back in the saddle and get the rhythm going again. Analyse the gradient as you climb and pick out the pinches and corners where you can stand up always monitoring momentum. If you get bogged down digging post holes you are not at optimum. Try getting out of seat before even thinking of changing to an easier gear (unless of course you have just bitten off way too much). My best advice is train for both and experiment on a known climb to maximise your effort. I must have climbed arthurs seat a couple of hundred times now and i know every cm of road and how to get the best out of myself. PB currently at 9.11.
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11/06/2010 2:28:37 PM
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Aaron Griffiths
Posts 8
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I'd like the final word on this.................
I like to climb SEATED. During the Giro I was seated the whole time and the climb up the Passo de Gavio didn't hurt me a bit. It'll be the same with Le Tour de France. Seated on a comfy couch, nibbles and drink at hand.
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14/06/2010 9:27:34 PM
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Jeffrey Schulz
Posts 55
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I found it depends on the gradient and length of the climb. When I did my fast times up Norton Summit I was out of the saddle to the Horse Riding area and then in the saddle to the 2km mark corner then back in the saddle and stayed there till the last few hundred meters where I would give everything I had out of the saddle. I tried to keep my cadence up while out of the saddle and concentrated on pulling the pedals up rather than pushing them down. I can not climb anymore now my back is stuffed from being run over to many times. I think it is more important to pace your effort. I was riding up the Freeway yesterday and a guy zoomed past me like I was stopped. I caught and passed him a few km later, he would really push on the steep parts and slow down on the flatter parts. I think it depends on your riding style, different people have different ways that work for them. If you want to know what works for you, climb out of the saddle and time yourself and then climb in the saddle and time yourself. Sames goes for cadence, there is no correct or wrong answer you really need to try and see what happens.
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